MN, Methode Naturelle, Natural Method, MovNat, etc.Going Natural (Moderators: Ozzi, Gregg)Hebert's "PE or complete training by the natural method"
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« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2009, 06:43:06 PM »

 Grin I forgot about that. [trying to type my entire post in one breath.]

I'm sorry I can't give a shorter, smoother translation. I AM leaving out the more boring parts. Some times.
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« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2009, 12:17:38 AM »

Sorry - for some reason, the forum does NOT like the huge long tables showing the different performances and their relative values. I only entered the 0 values. If you aren't at this basic level, work to build up to it. If you're above it, work to get even better. It's all about progression. The full charts in French can be found here

CHAPTER VIII
FINAL PRACTICAL GOAL AND UTILITY OF THE PHYSICAL EDUCATION OR TRAINING.
STRENGTH AND APTITUDE MEASUREMENTS

   No teacher has ever thought to specify, in a concrete way, the end that he proposes in physical education or training, ie the material results to achieve.

   From what we know, this is not surprising, since most methods are interested only in the practice of basic learning exercises. But it follows from the lack of evidence that pupils and teachers do not know what they have to do to succeed. Yet, not only do we work without enthusiasm and enjoyment when we work without precise goals, we inevitably lose time by repeating certain exercises without profit.
   
   The practical goal of education or training may be summarized as follows: to become strong.
But what is the meaning of the words: to be strong? What qualities should you possess? What are the exercises to be performed, performances to accomplish? etc..

   As nothing has yet been fixed on this subject, I tried to develop this important question by defining in a precise manner the elements which make up physical force and in giving a practical way to measure it.*

* [The question of force is closely linked with that of education or training by the natural method. Also the reader please excuse me if I frequently refer to my book: The Code of the Force, which contains developments on the subject too long to be reproduced here.]

   Physical force includes a number of diverse elements: strength, speed, muscular strength, general and special skill,  aptitude for various kinds of essential utility exercises, manly qualities, the general hardening of the body, frugality, etc..

   Being strong means being developed in a complete and useful manner. For example, a remarkable specialist in one type of exercise, but not in the others, such as a weight lifter or a wrestler unable to run or climb. .. or as a runner or a boxer who can not swim or climb ..., is not strong in a complete way.

   On the other hand, a subject that is content to shine in exercises or fancy sports (such as games of all kinds: football, tennis ... gymnastics with equipment: horizontal bar, parallel bars, etc..), but he ignores the art of swimming, to defend himself or is afraid of heights ... he is not strong in a useful way.

In short, the qualities that characterize the strong can be summarized as follows:
A strong being is tough, muscular, fast, skillful, energetic, hardened, frugal and sober. Moreover, he can walk, run, jump, climb, lift, throw, defend himself, and swim.

   Since there are different degrees in the physical development and, secondly, the athletic development can not be achieved by all, I thought it necessary to establish exactly what should be the minimum physical background of the educated or trained subject.

Under this title: The basic development. Eligibility to be considered as "managed", I listed in The Code of the Strength, the performances and exercises which let one come through the affairs in every circumstance. I also specified, in designing the measurable tests with the performance lists, the minimum degree of general physical value to be possessed, according to age, to not be a physical nothing. At such an age (from eight years) a subject of normal constitution must be able to walk and run such a distance in such a time, jump this obstacle, lift this weight,.. etc.

To measure the value of the strength or general ability, I have prepared a series of twelve classical tests including running, jumping, climbing, lifting, etc. which the execution brings into play, together or separately, the various elements which make up the useful and comprehensive strength: resistance, speed, muscular strength, skill,  the qualities of energy, the aptitude in the essential utility exercises, etc..

In The Code of the Force, I gave the reasons for the choice of tests and the practical significance of each. This choice is combined in this fashion to give resistance and speed priority over pure muscular strength. In other words, of two subjects tested, the toughest and most agile must necessarily prevail. This is logical and corresponds well to the definition of being strong as I see it. The strength lies more in the heart and lungs than in the muscles.

The twelve tests of the series model are the following:
1. Race 100 meters.
2. Race 500 meters.
3.Race 1500 meters.
4. High jump without momentum.
5. High jump with momentum.
6. Long jump without momentum.
7. Long jump with momentum.
8. Climbing a smooth rope.
9. Lift with both hands in "developed".
10 Throw weight of 7.257 kg [16 pounds]
11. Swimming: course of 100 meters.
12. Swimming: diving under water.

The performances realized in these different tests are listed in points after a determined scale, called scale of ability.

The zero of the scale corresponds to the minimum performance every adult at least eighteen years that will have to be able to do to have what I call the lower limit of basic development and not be a physical nothing.
The ratings 1 and 2 characterize the average performance; the ratings 3 and 4, the performance of superior value; ratings 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, performances of athletic or exceptional value.

The ratings from 11 to 15 and above characterize the maximal performances reached by the elite subjects or the specialists, ie those approaching the limits of human power.

Finally, ratings below zero or negative characterize the performances of insufficient or non-existent value.

The tables of pages 33 to 36 contain performance tables of the twelve tests of the classic serial-type.
The value of the strength or ability is expressed numerically by the total number of points obtained in the twelve races in the series-type. This number of points is obviously a sum if certain performances are listed in negative points.

To conduct the physical examination of a subject and know what he is practically worth, as well as to see his progress, it is sufficient to undergo, in certain very precise conditions, the twelve races in the series and to establish what I call its "form-type".

Next to the the number of point obtained in the twelve events, the ability is called:
1 - None, where this number is less than zero.
2 - Inferior, where this number is at least equal to zero.
3 – Average, where this number is at least equal to 18.
4 - Superior, where this number is at least equal to 36.
5 – Exceptional or Athletic, where this number is at least equal to 60.

The series model is not only a kind of formula for evaluating the general physical fitness: It is an accurate and practical way of controlling the results. It embodies them and makes them palpable.

It can also, and this is one of its greatest advantages, differentiate the subjects by giving them an idea of their value, not by a simple appraisal "to the feeling," as that given in almost all competitions or reviews of gymnastics, but by taking tests with measurable performances, avoiding any discussion on the respective abilities of each.

Its application allows you to easily realize the indisputable superiority of the results of education or training by the natural method compared to those obtained by following the methods of other methods that use only basic learning exercises.
                           RACE                    RACE                    RACE
VALUE                    100 METERS    500 METERS    1500 METERS
OF PERFORMANCE   Perform    #    Perform    #    Perform    #
Insufficiant or
invalid performances    
Lower limit of
basic development   16 sec    0    1:40             0    6:00             0
Average performances.    
Superior performances.   
Exceptional or athletic performances
Performances close to the limits of human power
--- --- ---
Maximum achieved by elite subjects or specialists.   
Official Records. French and World Records

                                         HI JUMP   HI JUMP   LONG JUMP
VALUE                                  No dash    w/ dash    No dash
OF PERFORMANCE                 Perform    #    Perform    #    Perform    #

Lower limit of basic development   0.80 m    0    1 m            0    2 m            0



                                            LONG JUMP    CLIMB    LIFT
VALUE                                     w/ dash        Smooth rope    With 2 hands
OF PERFORMANCE                   Perform    #    Perform    #    Perform    #
    
Lower limit of basic development   3.50 m    0    5 m            0    40 kg x1    0

 

                                           THROW           SWIM           SWIM
VALUE                                    7.257 kg
                                                [16#]            100 METERS    Dive under water
OF PERFORMANCE                   Perform    #    Perform    #    Perform    #

Lower limit of basic development   6 m            0    3:00            0    10 sec   0

The twelve series tests, by their very nature, indeed involve all the qualities that contribute to physical development; also they clearly add the practical and utilitarian goal of education or training.
The subject who is tested is given notice to demonstrate objectively the value of the qualities he possesses, and to prove his abilities in the different types of utility exercises. If he has never practiced the basic learning exercises, his skills are necessarily very low.

NOTE. - The figures in the tables on pages 33 to 36 correspond to figures of the performance tables in the 1st edition of the Code of force (1911). The results of experiments, described below, in chapter ix were calculated rating performances according to the tables of the first edition.

In the tables of the 2nd edition of the Code of force (1914) listing of performances was partially amended to allow a more precise measurement of physical fitness.
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« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2009, 09:12:24 PM »

This chapter is pretty boring. To me, the interesting things were the rations and the comparison of MN v Army training. Sorry for the messed up tables. Also, you're going to see the word "mousse" a lot. That's the French word for a ship's apprentice. It was easier to type "mousse".

CHAPTER IX
RESULTS OF PRACTICAL EXPERIENCE
From what we have just seen, the measure of physical fitness can be obtained with sufficient precision using the twelve classic tests in the series.

The personal experience I have acquired through my special functions, allow me to say now, after having been duly noted by means of tests of this series, the general physical value of young people arriving in military service between eighteen and twenty-one years is the state of nullity or is extremely close.

In other words, if, conforming to the rules relating to the measurement of the aptitude detailed in The Code of Force, one establishes from the earliest days of arrival, the individual sheet of each of the subjects of a any unit: company, battalion, regiment ... or a group of at least one hundred subjects assembled at random and then, after the algebraic sum of all their points, we divide this sum by the number of subjects, I affirm that the overall average thus obtained is usually below the zero level skills or above this zero only two or three points at most. Still needs to be done, in the physical examination of subjects, setting aside the two swimming tests and being content with just the first ten races of the series.

There are, indeed, a considerable number of subjects who can not swim at all and can not therefore be rated negatively in these same tests.

From my personal observations, the number of subjects who can not tread water reaches 60 to 75% of recruits from the interior and 20 to 30% for the recruits from the coast or of the registered near the sea.

These relative conclusions on the value of physical fitness of young people arriving under the flags results from the review that I could make of the cards of thousands of recruits from all professions and from all sources. Five hundred of these young people belonged to an infantry regiment, much of the other (two thirds) were committed by the army of the sea, mainly workers and peasants from all parts of France; the remainder was composed of registered shipping.

That said, here are the practical results obtained by using the natural method in the two institutions following depending on the Navy or the organization, which I worked at for some time, is the best point: the School of  Ship’s Apprentices and the School of the Marines *.

* The natural method is now adopted in the Navy for the physical training of crews, and its implementation continues gradually to the various services, both on board and on shore. It is practiced not only by young men and men made, but also by young persons under eighteen years at the School of Mousses (1100 students) and the Mechanics School (675 students); Finally, by children from seven to fourteen years at the School of wards of the Navy (650 orphans).

I. At the School of Mousses [ship’s apprentices]

The Navy has in the bay of Brest, in the ships Britain and Magellan, the School of Mousses, which includes the current 1200 students from fourteen and a half years to seventeen and a half years. These young people come from all parts of France, but particularly the coast of Brittany. The main physical conditions required for admission to the school, the minimum age of fourteen and a half years, are as follows: 40 kg weight, having 71 cm thoracic perimeter, 1.429 m height, and, at the age of fifteen and a half years, weigh 42 kg, have 1.478 m height, and also 71 cm at least thoracic perimeter.

The School of Mousses is designed to train solid, trained sailors; it is the nursery of future non-commissioned officers of the fleet. The number of students admitted could reach 1600; 400 places are currently vacant due to shortage of candidates. There is obviously little pronounced taste of French youth, except the Bretons, for the hard work of the Sea. *

* Of these 1000 students currently in school, 76 % are Bretons and 30 % sons of seafarers.

Physical education of the mousses is especially careful and we can cite it as an example to all scholarly or military establishments.

It is established in strict accordance with the principles of the natural method described in this study, and it continues throughout the time of the youth stay at the School, ie for a period of eighteen months, two years at most. The regular working sessions of one hour each are only four in number per week, including two onshore and two aboard, but apart from these regular meetings, mousses are daily subjected to by their own occupations, to practice the types of essential utility exercises that are most important. For example, almost all movements on board involve running: running in the ladders of the panels and in the shrouds of the masts as well as the bridges; mast exercises, hoisting and handling of boats, of gear ...consist of all kinds of climbing, or climbing or traverses in dangerous places or where the vertigo is a fear, various efforts of pulling and pushing: The various jobs on board, supply and other chores, forced to lift and transport burdens of all kinds, etc..

On the other hand, maritime exercises, as well as washing the deck performed in all weather and bare feet, trains the mousses to the elements in a remarkable fashion, and sleeping in a simple hammock without sheets accustomed to harsh conditions.
Finally, manual work, which is learning to file, chisel, weld, forge ..., to tie knots and work the ropes, give them the ability to practically address everything while helping their overall development.

Upon leaving school, between sixteen years and a half and seventeen and a half years, or later, the mousses are paid on board vessels of the fleet where they are subject to fatigue and harshest conditions of the deck, and it is never necessary to consider their young age.

Their diet at school is the same as the boarded sailors. Only boys under sixteen years shall receive thirty cl of wine a day instead of fifty. The daily ration is composed of:
Meal bread and soup bread (grayish brown bread): 750 gr; fresh meat: 32O gr, or canned beef: 250 gr; coffee: 20 gr; sugar:  20 gr; wine 50 cl; for a fixed premium 0.20 francs per head for the purchase of groceries, vegetables and fruit. [about 4 cents!]
This ration costs, following the course of food, 0.95 to 1.05 francs [19 to 21 cents]. It is ten to fifteen centimes more expensive than the ration of the soldier, mainly because of the wine that is not usually in the composition of the latter. As a curiosity, note that the minimum soldier ration includes: 1 meal bread and soup bread (white bread): 675 gr; fresh meat: 320 gr; coffee, sugar, groceries, vegetables and fruits : for a value of 0.225 francs.

The 1200 mousses currently at the School are divided into eight companies, each averaging 150 subjects. The arrival and departure of contingents are held every six months in January and July. Approximately 250 to 300 mousses foams, or the quota of two companies, leave the school every six months.

The following table summarizes the results of the physical education of the past three years, giving the overall average for the ability of mousses after one year and eighteen months or two years of residence at the School. This average is deduced by examining cards of subjects belonging to the same groups or companies and by the same age and same length of stay in the school. At the arrival of new troops, the material difficulties of all kinds always prevents advance training of the complete sheets of all the subjects without exception. But those that have been completed so far in the first month of stay in the school are enough to indicate that the physical value of young entrants oscillates around -20 *, not including the swimming events.

* It should be noted that the lower limit of development is the basic code - 12 for the subjects from sixteen to eighteen years and the code - 24 for subjects from fourteen to sixteen years, including Swimming races, respectively, or to – 10 or - 20, without swimming (see The Code of the Force).

The following results are established without taking into account the swimming tests, which are held separately. The first ten tests of the series have been suffered by each mousse in the space of one week and not in a single day.
   GENERAL AVERAGE
   OF PHYSICAL FITNESS
LENGTH OF STAY IN SCHOOL    on arrival 14 ½  to 15 ½ years    after one year of residence 15 ½  to 16 ½ years.    after 18 months or 2 years of residence 16 ½  years to 17 ½.
1 July 1908 to July 1, 1910.
1 January 1909 to 1 January 1911. From 1 July 1909 to July 1, 1911.    -20 approx
Same
Same    + 6.80
+ 5.10
+ 8.50   + 13.10
+ 15.10
+ 17.40

The final averages increased from 1908 to 1911, as the organization of exercise lessons has advanced. It is hoped that now, thanks to the zeal of the instructor officers, the final averages are never lower than currently.

With the goal to complete this presentation of results,  the general physical fitness of mousses currently attending school (November 1911) and having at least one year of residence, has been determined in an extremely precise fashion, from the 15 to 30 October 1911.

The results obtained in the first ten tests of the series, affecting each mousse in the space of one week, were as follows for different groups:

1 - Contingent of old mousses before disembarking December 31, 1911.
Number of students: 103.
Duration of stay at the school: 22 months.
From what we said above, 250 to 300 former mousses quit the School every six months. The contingent of formers landing on 31 December 1911 should include at least 250 subjects, but there are only 103. This follows a ministerial dispatch which authorizes the school commander to pay the crews of the fleet, from the age of sixteen and a half years, the most educated and most robust subjects who have had at least an eighteen month stay at the school.

The 103 former mousses of whom we speak represent the remainder of a group of 333 beginning mousses presented  June 30, 1911, ie effectively of two companies, companies 2 and 3. In the circumstances. Other mousses forming part of the original company have been released early since 1 July 1911.

Physical examination of 103 former subjects gave the following:
Overall average of 103 subjects:  + 18.10
Overall average of ten strongest:  + 40.54.
Overall average of the ten weakest: + 7.90.
Total points of the strongest: + 51.20.
Total points of the weakest  + 2.80.
Average weight of 103 topics: 59.1 kg
Weight of the heaviest: 74.5 kg
Weight of the lightest subject: 48 kg.
Height size of the largest: 1. 77 m.
Height size of the smallest on: 1.55 m.

The strongest subject, ie one who has obtained 51.20 as the total number of points in the first ten races of the series-type, has the main features: height 1.74 m, weight 74 kg; 1 meter chest circumference with forced inspiration; 32 cm arm, right arm bent. He is a Breton named Henry, born in Huelgoat (Finistère), he is seventeen years and three months.

2 Contingent to land in June 1912 (First Company).
Students: 121 subjects.
Duration of stay at the School: 16 months.
Overall average of subjects + 11.64
Overall average of ten strongest +32.94.
Overall average of the ten lowest - 7.98.
Total number of points of the strongest + 40.45.
Total number of points of the weakest: - 31.8.
(This is a subject with a weak and sickly constitution.)
Average weight of 121 Topics: 56.3 kg
Weight of the heaviest: 73.5 kg.
Weight of the lightest subject: 43.5 kg
Height of the tallest 1.75 m.
Height of the smallest 1.495 m.

Characteristics of the strongest, having obtained as total number of points +40: Size: 1.62 m Weight: 67 kg, perimeter thoracic in forced inspiration: 0.92 m; arm perimeter, right arm flexed: 3o cm. He is a Breton named Lorec, born in Belle-Ile, is sixteen years old and five months.

3 - Contingent before landing in June 1915 (4th Company).
Students: 119 subjects.
Length of stay in school: 16 months.
Overall average of 119 subjects: + 13.77.
Overall average of the ten strongest: + 37.74.
Overall average of the ten weakest: - 1.36.
Total number of points of the strongest subject: + 45.4
Total number of points of the weakest: - 6.05.
Average weight of 119 subjects: 56 kg.
Weight of the heaviest: 71 kg.
Weight of the lightest: 46 kg.
Height of the tallest 1.75 m.
Height of the smallest  1.47 m

Main features of the strongest subject, having obtained as total number of points + 45.40: height: 1.65m  Weight: 62 kg; chest perimeter in forced inspiration: 0.88 m; arm, right arm flexed: 28 cm. He is a Breton named Ferrère born in Lorient and aged sixteen years and three months.

4 - Staff instructors.
It may be worthwhile to add to this suite of results, the overall average of the instructor staff at the school, which includes 12 districts teachers of musketry and 4 rifle patented, whose age ranges from twenty-three to forty years .
Average of 16 instructors: 34.80.
Total number of points in the strongest: + 70.45.
Total number of points in the weakest: + 14.25.
Total number of points in the oldest (4o years): + 35.75.
These instructors are not experts; the teaching of physical exercises just falls within the scope of their very complex duties. We must also consider that several of them have suffered the fatigue of long campaigns before their arrival at the school.
The main characteristics of the strongest instructor, having obtained as total number of points +70.45 are as follows: Size: 1. 76 m; weight: 69 kg; chest perimeter in forced inspiration: 1.01 m; arm, right arm bent: 32 cm. He is a Breton named Martin, born in Loqueffreis (Finistère) and aged twenty-four and a half years.

5 Summary of results concerning the value of fitness. Average performance in various tests.

In summary, the overall average for the ability of different groups of mousses having at least one year of residence at the School was the following 31 October 1911:

GENERAL AVERAGE
Number remaining in 2 and 3 companies: 103 subjects
before starting the 31 December 1911 + 18.10
I Company, effective: 121 subjects before starting the
30 June 1912 + 11.64
4th company Effective: 119 subjects before starting the
30 June 1912  + 13.77
This represents an average of + 14.00 for the 343 mousses aged sixteen to seventeen and a half years currently attending school.

One can assume that in June 1912, after eight new months of training, 1st and 4th companies will at least equal + 18, the actual average of the former contingent of 2nd and 3rd companies.

It is interesting to know what accounts for nearly all of these averages. The following table gives the average performance of different groups of mousses in each of the ten tests of the series:
Groups           Races                           Jumps                                  Climb   Lift   Throw
                   100m   500m      1500m   Hi 0       Hi +      Long 0   Long +   Rope   40kg   16#
Old [2 & 3 Co]   14.8   1:33       5:34           1.0m       1.21m   2.30m   4.12m   8.50m   2x   6.10m
New 1st Co           14.9   1:35.5   5:37   .89m   1.12m   2.21m   3.77m   8.33m   1x   5.92m
New 4th Co   14.8   1:36   5:40   .93m   1.15m   2.24m   4.00m   8.57m   1.5x   5.95m

The average performance in throwing the weight was weak for the three companies relative to average performances of the other tests. That is because there was not enough material for throwing, so the exercise was not practical or convenient.

6 ° Endurance racing background.
To show the durability of mousses in the race, I add that the various contributors mentioned above, except a waste of 10 % formed by the sickly subjects, executed on a track, grouped in military formation, ie at a pace slower than that of an individual race, a race of 12 kilometers without stopping. The minimum time was 1:04 and the maximum 1:10.

In general, at the end of each week there is an endurance race on progressive courses varying from 1.5 to 10 kilometers.

7 ° Swimming.

With regard to swimming, from a total of 573 mousses composing the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th companies on 1 July 1911, 226 were unable to tread water. 3o September 1911, 11 still could not swim at all, after eight weeks of swimming exercise because, for the entire month of August, mousses are on vacation.

On 4 September 1911, at the fifth week of training, a test of swimming took place on a
course of 500 meters: 250 meters in one direction and 250 meters in the opposite direction due to the current; 117 mousses participated and 57 have fully completed the course: the 1st in 13:52 and 57th in 20:34. The weakest of the other 60 had traveled 220 meters.

8 ° Air baths.

Mousses mix with air daily on board or ashore, either during the exercise session, or during part of this meeting, according to the weather.

Their training to cold, heat or the burning rays of the sun is particularly remarkable and has always astonished those who can see them at work. The population of Brest, which always follows with interest the mousses exercises for several years, often witnessed the spectacle: in winter, on their field exercise, in the polygon of the navy, especially where beaten by the wind, the mousses exercised with bare torsos; in front of them soldiers, torso warmly dressed in a shirt (and often a flannel or a sweater on top), a flannel belt, a jacket and sometimes a hood perform the exercises in the Regulation of Physical Education in the army.
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« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2009, 10:48:51 PM »

The final installment: Severely abridged, because I'm bored of this book. The rest of chapter 9 is more stats on people he's trained.

[Caption on QM picture]: Exercise walking and running with support hands on the floor.
(Elementary exercise of climbing). This complete exercise of travel with the four members strengthens especially the upper limbs and develops some of the skills needed to climb and scale.

He talks about training kids. How one would run off to chase butterflies during races, etc.

The most extraordinary of all this little band is certainly Lo Louay, who has just turned ten years old. The day after the 50 kilometers test [31 miles], he showed absolutely no trace of fatigue. He is very well equipped for all types of exercises. Here are some of his usual performances:

High Jump without dash: 0.6m;
High jump with dash 0.8m;
Long jump with dash 3.05m
Throwing 16# weight (average of both arms): 2.5 m;
Press a 15 kg bar: 3 times
Climb the rope without using the legs (start sitting on the ground): 3.5m.

To climb with legs, Le Louay reached the top of the highest string of the gymnasium of the School of Marine Riflemen, or 15.5 m, or he goes up three times in succession at the top of a string of 12 meters, sitting just two or three minutes between each climb. He commonly passes over the traverse of gates 8 meters in height, etc..Finally, like all his young comrades, Le Louay is a great little fighter, fighting Breton naturally.

I wish to point out, in conclusion, that the performances we just read were not performed by choice subjects or having specially preparation under the direction of a professor or even having been pushed into the tests to the extreme limit of their forces. It is simply the results obtained, without force of any sort, with any children who are growing freely outdoors without supervision and who are far from having a diet as rich as that of a son of the bourgeoisie. These budding young athletes are also ready to start again and do a lot better.

I delivered their performances, I personally checked them all, at the meditation  of parents or teachers too timid when it comes to exercise their children or students.

CHAPTER X
PRACTICAL CONCLUSIONS [abridged]

Only the natural method gets such great results. Theoretically, other methods will work, but practically, they are pursuing different goals, for a variety of reasons.

[and then he goes over the reasons, again]

And that's the end, as far as I'm concerned. I'm free from translating! Free! Free, I tell you! Oh wait - there's the other book, still...
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 11:06:38 PM by Gregg » Logged

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